In this episode of Fundraising Radio Emanuel Pleitez Investor at East Los Capital, tech-enabled private equity firm. Emanuel also worked at the U.S. Department of Treasury during 2008 crisis and a large part of this episode is about comparing the 2008 crisis to the current crisis and of course we talked about how East Los Capital makes its investments and what does it mean to be tech-enabled PE firm.
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this is fund raising we do and today's a guest speaker Emanuel investor and Co founder at East Los capital,
and he was also a special assistant to the legendary chairman of economic recovery advisory boards.
Paul Walker, you're in the crisis of two thousand and eight, two thousand and twelve, and because of that role will part of this episode will be actually focused on comparing that crises to the current crisis from the startup perspectives.
So a manual let's kick off by giving us some background on yourself and on East Los capital.
Sure, thank you for having me. So I am one of the CO, founders of capital where you new lower middle market, private equity firm that invest in companies where tech enablement can continue improving their outcomes.
So, we, we love to say that we're enabling the world, because they're willing to go into any industry almost that is not capitalized intensive, find a good businesses, and help them with their technology.
So, through that, we have sort of a three prong strategy where we spend more time on research on the front end than most other firms. We love to use technology and big data to find companies, whether on the front end to find the platform investment.
But also to add to add on investments and then third, we have this amazing group of technical advisers. That serve essentially, as the operating partner role of most of the private equity firms where they help us from identifying companies.
So, the due diligence of companies to eventually, when we acquire a company could serve in executive role advisor role, even a board of directors roles. So, that's that's sort of our, our secret sauce, which we don't mind sharing with the world because at the end of day it's all about.
And and we're excited to look at any in all companies that kind of fit in that lower middle market.
Right. Got it and first question here will be how do you find those companies so how do you final those investments that you we'll make eventually sure.
So, we have a technical sourcing process that includes at aggregating as much data as possible from, you know, we have access to some of the data sets that most people have access to that. You can subscribe to. But aside from that, we to collect our own data.
That sometimes it's either offline, or it's data that you have to manually find, because you can't pay paid or you can subscribe to it.
So, through that process, we end up creating our own proprietary data set after we have our own proprietary data set.
We continue enriching it as time goes on and buy more data that we find, but also their conversations that we have with our own network,
and that leads me to how we layer on our own network analytics where we identify people that we are all connected to from our firm,
whether it's the founders were technical advisor so that we kind of layer on the sort of how to get to the CEO is at the end of the day,
when you look at a company,
the better companies that there are not necessarily looking to sell,
they're they're just focusing on their business so we want to be the first private equity firm that reaches out to them,
or at least the best private equity from that reaches out to them. So that we can just carry over our tech enabled solution. For that.
So, just to clarify it, just to make sure I understand correctly. Basically you go through places like crunch base and and find some starts that might be fit for your mile based on some specific metrics. Right?
Yes, that is that is the, the first part of the solution. Absolutely. And not just those two entities. But, you know, they're a number of new entries. Also that have popped up throughout the last call it five to ten years. That are aggregating data on companies, which, which we love. Right?
Because that, that just brings us together more data.
Better decisions, can you name a couple of those or are those part of your secret sauce?
Yeah, I mean, look at that you can look up company data and you can find the vendors you mentioned, you can find vendors that have actually taken a step forward and created API for you to connect to them.
So, I mean, you know, without having to name them all and make it a commercial for them, I mean, there's, there's just a ton of them and I would say for any investor out there, it's, it's no one data vendor is the end all be.
So, whether it's the to you mentioned or any others, that's not what's gonna get you the, the best data. You need to be able to aggregated, compare it to each other, create your own analysis.
Because if you only stop at one vendor, then you're gonna basically see the same data that everyone else is. And that's not really differentiated.
So, the magic is to be able to look at multiple data sets, acquire your own data as well and then be able to run analytics on it. So you can make your own decision on, which are the best companies for you.
One thing all know,
is that we've noticed that they are probably more data vendors and focus on the venture capital earlier
stage type of investing and there's less in the non venture style investing world.
And that's because there's even less data. Right? It's very sexy for journalists to write about venture capital, because it's to kind of throw those big number of zeros.
Out there of how much a company raises,
but at the end of the day,
there are many companies that have never raised venture capital or maybe only second a little bit of money from,
friends and family and they are building successful businesses and so those are the companies that we love and so it's an interesting thing where we actually get pitched by a lot of data vendors that pitching to venture capital firms and while we appreciate the venture
because my partner,
and I have invested in that style as well,
we love to we're,
we're almost counter intuitive because we,
we don't want we don't care about the data or,
at least the data that shows that that the company raised.
A bunch of money is negative signal for us. Those most of those folks actually drop out of of our opportunity set if that makes sense. Oh, nice. That's actually an interesting approach. So, what other metric are you looking at your models?
So when you're just scraping hundreds and hundreds of companies, let's see crunch base, because that's the one I use the most. What are the major metrics that you're basing your decision off?
So you're like, so the algorithm looks at the number of monthly visitors of the websites.
Were amount of capital that the raised, or the founding date, and it says, like, okay, this is the company that will select for further review where those metrics. Sure. So I'll start with growth.
Conquers all we are definitely growth oriented, but I, the caveat is.
There's a lot of people that talk about growth from a venture capital style, which is code for just late stage venture. We're not lead stage venture but we care about real organic capital, efficient growth.
So, back to my point of a few, a minute ago. It's that if you raise a hundred million dollars, that your grows is being catapulted by the hundred million dollars. Obviously. Right good or bad.
Right there because there's some companies that manage hundred million, turn that into a billing. But there's some companies. There is a hundred million and, you know, they have five million the revenue by a company. That's never is any money.
Today, and maybe they're not going as fast with their more capital efficient and the growth more organic if that makes sense.
So what growth conquers all you have to understand how to how, how to analyze growth metrics whether it's like you said, user growth, right?
Or or follower growth, if it's more consumer, I think those metrics a little bit more consumer on the enterprise side. If it's software, then you obviously, you wanna.
Data out there on, you know, what companies are using your software, there's also public mentions right they're sort of mentioned in, in sort of industry, rags, enterprise type publications.
You can also notice it through being mentioned by you're your vendors or or, you know, as as a customer. Right? So there's other ways that you can kind of find if you wanna get deep into it, you can, you can notice did you lease new office?
Although now uncover nineteen is probably less irrelevant a big one that a lot of folks like to look at head count growth on LinkedIn, right? Linkedin is using company and they don't allow you to take that data.
Although there's a lot of folks that are trying to figure out how to data, you know, without adding a bunch of people. So there's a lot of data that there's a lot of different metrics that allow you to.
Have at least a suspicion or corollary to growth, but then you have to then layer on the fact of whether or not they've raised money.
So if you raised a bunch of money, I usually get knocked out from our perspective. But for another for another venture capitalist, they might love that, because they love the signaling that, like, a quick capital invested in you in the past. Right?
But for us, that that doesn't necessarily mean that you're means your good follower of other brands. Fine. It's fine with investing, but it doesn't necessarily show your investing skill in our opinion.
And so we love to challenge ourselves, because that's where we find the best returns into companies that haven't read from anyone, or have raise money from no name firms, or family offices or random.
Because those are the companies that maybe are off the radar from all the follower type of strategies. And those are the ones where maybe we can negotiate a better entry point as an investor into the company, and then help them with their tech enablement.
So one thing that I've noticed at prior firms, where I was at, is that sometimes we pass on companies, because maybe we felt their technology wasn't that great? And that's what I believe is actually a missing piece of the puzzle from an investor perspective.
That cares about technology in any source capital we'd love to look at companies and as long as you're, you're building a pretty good business that is growing then we can say, okay.
The lack of technology,
or maybe not as proficient technology that's actually an opportunity and we see that as an ability for us to step in there,
be hands on leaves the technical advisors and help get that company into a more tech proficient matter,
it should end the lifting margins,
creating a better funnel on the sales and marketing side and hopefully,
when we sell,
we can sell it a higher.
Right. That's actually I love the approach. I personally not the biggest fan of the first, but still love that model.
Probably even more than venture capital so I like that, but let's move on to. They all they all have their place.
Big incision investors are chasing yield and they need a new places to deploy the capital. Exactly. Exactly. So, let's talk about the thing that you mentioned earlier, which has seen on the companies boards. What does it mean to be a hands on investors?
How does it happen? Basically, more than half of the investors that are saying that they are hands on investors, you know, they're trying to help the company etc. Etc. How do you see this happening? What's your role as an investor in the company?
I would say if, if if you don't say that you're trying to help the company you're in the minority, because everyone says it won't help the company. Now, the question is like, just.
You know, logistically your head, if you, if you have twenty portfolio companies, you want to invest in professional it is, and you're looking for new investments you're deploying new capital. It is probably pretty difficult for you to help almost twenty companies. Right?
Just, you just don't have enough time, you can have all the grid and.
You can have the greatest network and connect the founder to those people but it is really difficult to help twenty companies at a time. So, when you think of, you know, put my, my McKenzie had.
Build companies internally the operating companies you need to understand span of control. Right? And so if you're in sure like, the most companies you can actually help is probably only three to maybe five some are more talented and know how to manager.
Better support network and then get six seven, maybe, but it is really difficult to help more than that.
So then when when an investor says they're hands on, you know, take take it with a grain of salt as a founder, and really asked the followup questions like, well, how many other companies.
And what is your help consistent? Is your help just providing intros, which is quite frankly, not trivial. Intros matter, right? Especially if it's a an investor that has an opinion.
People that you want to be able to talk to right potential customers or potential follow on investors later on that matters.
But when we think of a hands on the actual, operationally hands on,
we think of actually helping you with every line item on on your income statement and balance right and think of the resources and the best way possible,
how do you create real value?
Right? Is it launching new products? The same customer? Is it launching a product to a different type of customer? Right? Is it just making your product leaner? Right? And, you know, decreasing your Cox on a per product basis right? Increasing gross margins.
There's, there's sort of a lot of things you can think about that you can slice and dice what quote unquote help means.
And that's what we pride ourselves on, is that the real analytical pros to figure out, where are the value creation levers in your company and that's what we want to do. Now that's all mumbo jumbo. There's some people that are not consultants.
But it just brass tax do you want to sit on the board and, you know, just pontificate at board meetings or do you want to say, hey, Here's what I think you should do and let us help you.
Let us find you the right people instead of having a, for an executive, you know, hiring staff or consultant to to find that new executive let us find them for you. Right?
If it's if it's thinking through the strategy of launching something else, some new program or product or service.
Let us actually get in the weeds and help you determine that plan. So we can go to market faster instead of spending a lot of time strategizing and again, hiring consultants or any, any third party to help you with it. So, that's what I mean by that, and you can serve on the board.
You can, you can just be.
Find you talent, or you can again back to the sort of intros of customers you can not just intro to a customer, but actually have initial conversations with customers to ease the business development in partnership on ramp.
So that eventually these customers or conduits to customers are more easily a team by the company.
Right. That's actually very precise description of hands on investment. I think you hit tons of really valuable points here but my next question was about, you know, hopefully hopefully, I don't hurt.
Pretty sure every single we see out there as a decent self esteem. I'm pretty sure the are confident that you're talking now about them. And the last thing I would say is that a passive investor is also not bad.
It's just a different style. Exactly. I mean, Warren Buffett, you know, without getting into too much, because, you know, everyone has their own, but it in their own stories.
But, you know, he's he's that he's famous for sometimes making investment decisions on a, not a whim. But but in a very educated way, but quickly and in trusting the management team to run the company, right?
He's not an operator himself. He has there's been points in history where he's jumped in to to help kind of oversee process. Today.
There's many passive investors that are great, and they just know how to pick out good management teams that can that can run with it. Quite frankly. Sometimes, when I talked to my venture capital
friends that have twenty plus portfolio companies, they say, it's not bad to say your passive right?
Just provide the capital and trust the management team. Because that's what you're doing it back. I love I, I, I heard a session recently by some who where they said we focus on the fundamental.
The fundamentals for a venture capitalist for a hedge fund investor or someone, you know, that's looking at a company with a lot of financial data. When you say, I focus on the fundamentals.
On the actual financials, right? You're focusing on on margins your seeing on, you know, kind of a trends.
Fundamentals, but but some venture capital, they focus on other mental is understanding the management team. Interesting, the management team, right?
And so fundamentals, I mean, different and different places, different styles of investing and so some investors that passive style actually works in back.
I am invested in one company called needing West that has never taken VC money has only take an angel investor money,
multiple rounds of introduction many but specifically we've decided, I don't want,
I don't wanna say,
I'm part of the part of the,
the investor group,
but if the management team has decided there's no need for us to, like,
go Google gaga over the venture capitalists, because they're likely going to be quote, unquote hands on.
But in a way that's almost distracting to the team. And so most of the investors are passive, and that company has done phenomenally well, it's one of my best investments ever. And and so there's room for the passive investors. As long as you have management team that can run with it.
So, I would say that I prefer hands off investors as well. So, the question is.
She you, like, go through their portfolio and talk to the founders that they've invested in or is there a faster way to do this? Sure. Just like us investors always want to do a customer checks. Right?
When I should actually do calls with customers interview customers of, of a company we're looking to invest in, whether I would say some folks in the in the kind of earlier venture style world.
They like to do that on the front end in the private equity, more kind of robust fundraising processes, our processes. Sometimes we do it on the lateral right?
Because the company doesn't want, you know, ten different private equity firms sniffing around and talking to the customers.
So, there's a different way of talking to customers, but in that same vein, if you're a founder and you're trying to do due diligence on the, the investor, it is absolutely fair game.
As for references, or two, just do your own channel checks right? And by challenge, I mean, you know, in this case channels of other portfolio, companies of theirs, find out, like, are they active? Are they not active? Do you care about that?
And if they are active, are they value added? Right? Do you want them to be active?
So, there, those are that's probably the most typical way to figure out if someone is active, but, you know, you you, that's why you want to talk and make sure that you really get to know them.
So that you understand how they any going forward. I've heard, you know, amazing.
When companies go up into the right and they continue growing everyone's happy. No matter how.
So, when things don't go up into the right and the company has some hiccups along the way, I've heard of horror stories, mainly from founders were investors.
At that point, they kind of sink their teeth and and say, yeah, I remember all that fine print in the share purchase agreement or, you know, or whatever the transaction a documents were. Yeah. Now we're gonna exercise it because we don't think you're doing the greatest job.
So, we're gonna figure out how to either, you know, put in a new manager. Or make sure that we block certain material decisions for.
And that's when,
if you didn't do the upfront due diligence on the investor,
and get to know them and and almost plan for bad situations conversation, when the hiccups happened don't doesn't end up going to well,
and the same thing,
I would say,
with founders forget even investors just founders and cofounders, you need to have the worst case scenario,
Like, what? If you have right down.
And I, I, I, I, I don't wanna say a hundred percent, but more than the majority of the companies that I've interacted with, in one way, or another, haven't had founder breakups at one point or another.
So so it's, it's almost bound to happen at some point. Right? And so you need to have those conversations upfront that in the worst case scenario, here's.
We deal with that situation, or eventually quite frankly dissolve the. I had a good conversation with of our advisors recently where he said it's expensive to dissolve the company. It's expensive to stop business. So you need to have a budget for the upfront and and that whole.
Solution of a company, right? I mean, there's legal cost involved and how do you do whatever they that are remaining? Even if it's not a capital asset intensive company, there's intangibles and and how do you deal with that? Right? And.
Those are all the things that as a founder you need to be thinking about upfront and just have plans in place. Ideally, you never have to touch on but make sure you're prepared. Absolutely. Prepared for the worst is like the.
But also, the worst always happens during is just.
But let's talk about the worst in the past, which is the two thousand a crisis worked at the U. S Department of Treasury, super great job under Super famous people.
I personally a big fan of one of your bosses. And so I'm really excited to talk about this. So, what do you think is.
Between the crisis of two thousand and eight and two thousand twenty from these dark perspective.
Sure, from the started perspective, I would say that the financial crisis or the Great recession in two thousand eight to nine was.
So we'll get into sort of the Federal Reserve and Treasury actions, like environment actions that's in it in this timeframe.
At least the last few months had been way a stronger and faster and you can argue that that's better in the short run. Right look at the stock market.
It's, it's behaving in a way where everything is hunky, but in the really economy, it's not. Right. And so in in the financial crisis, I would say that took a little long.
And quite frankly, that was the changes administration, right? The financial crisis started in the administration. And and then you had.
A new president elected in November, which was after all bills massive financial entities went under and then you had seventy seven days of.
From one government to another now, you know, I was part of that so I, I don't.
Say that, you know, like, I feel like we actually did a pretty good job, but but that change administration definitely had an impact. Now, I would say once the new administration came in, then, you know, it was like, okay, now we're all.
Or seven on fixing everything we can through the ministrations agenda, which was definitely a kind of coordinated, global effort. And in this case, we're not necessarily coordinating as much around around the world. Right good or bad.
back to the start up perspective,
for a number of those reasons,
I feel that in the financial crisis of two thousand,
because it was more financial in nature versus,
induced by by a virus,
but by a health care situation,
the the dramatic decrease in capital availability in the financial crisis was much deeper and so any startup that was trying to raise money or needed cache at that point felt it much more
during the two thousand and eight, two thousand,
Then they are doing it.
this crisis is obviously through care virus situation and so because of that,
it's it's very different in nature and the capital availability actually didn't dry up it dried up for maybe two or three weeks in the,
in the broader capital markets.
Are you in a big kind of the markets but overall it didn't really dry dry up as in it wasn't available because the federal is there pump so much money into the economy and the big investors out there.
They may be paused for a few weeks to kind of collect their thoughts and figure out where their portfolio companies were. But but they were deploying money. They've been the.
Few a few months, so so from a startup perspective, if you had a good business, you actually were able to raise money in the last couple of months, and the vc's and equity firms, all adapted.
Now, this economic contraction is is not done right? We still have crazy high end employment that happened very quickly.
So, you know, and, and, you know, the the unemployment insurance, a dollars that a lot of folks are getting are going to try up at the end of this month and we'll see what Congress does. You know.
There's a lot of things that are still yet to be determined and so, the economic contraction, because to be happening and we'll still hurt more startups. And so, you know, there are startups that obviously, we're hit the worst right?
Any sort of the site to travel fatality. But then there's a lot of startups that are tied to that are not tied to those industries that are growing even faster. Right look at the, the zooms Shopify of the world and
anyone in that ecosystem.
So, anyway, it's, it's a mix bag in two thousand and nine. It was much severe broadly, because all financial entities essentially needed to shore up their capital requirements. And, and the capital availability was almost stop for everyone.
Well, in this case, the capability didn't really stop. Maybe, it is froze for a few weeks, but then it sort of resume and only.
To that kind of twenty percent of the economy that I mentioned are the ones that are the hardest hit, but everyone else can still go out and raise money. And, you know, they're still gonna take a hit because the economy's all tied together, but it's not gonna take it as much of a hit.
Some of the other industries that's actually very positive answer. And then there's still a lot of. So, yeah, I want to paint a two rosy picture, but.
The reason that even my answer is somewhat Rosie, it's because the Federal Reserve has signal so much who has already committed so much support and signal.
For the economy, so there will be some industry there gonna be take notes want to recover. But right now these were all betting on the Federal Reserve and if you bet against that.
You you have not, which is, I think great favors are fine and we learned lesson from two thousand the I guess so. I, I, I hate saying that that is the right answer.
It's just a fact, because yes, we don't know if the fact that we're that the fact we're, we've increased the debt load more than economic growth over the last twelve years and now so much more. I mean, I, I don't.
I think I think it's a good thing that we survive it. Right but, you know, if it continues and fully it's gonna have, you know, it's gonna reverberate throughout the economy. Absolutely, absolutely. Hopefully will resolve the problems with it that curious how, by the way.
But we'll see, we'll see that any future, but let's move on and talked about early stage founders who I've heard struggle the most right down here into fundraising process because most of the capital that's actually.
So, it goes to layer stage companies according to my previous speakers, then we will have it in detail on that but I believe my speakers. So I assume this is correct. And what do you think?
What would you recommend that early stage founders who just we're trying to raise money right now during this been Dominican who are not necessarily directly benefiting from the virus.
So I, I don't necessarily believe, you know, what your other speakers have said, but I'll give it. I'll give it a rationale for why it could be the case.
And the reason it could be the cases that investors, especially early stage, venture capitalist when you don't have financials to analyze. What are you bet on? We talked about this a few minutes ago.
You've been on the management team and how do you, how do you under stand the management team, or the founders you have to meet them right? And that can happen. So it's just harder to do due diligence for some of these earlier stage investors.
So maybe some of these troops have been gun, shy, on, on, betting on these, you know, earlier companies but I wouldn't say that still deploying capital. Trust me.
Like, I've seen many of my friends and earlier stage VC. There's still deploying capital. In fact, I'm helping one of the companies that I'm invested in raise a little bit of money in and we're gonna raise, you know, a half a million dollars. So it's it's still happening. Right?
But, yes, if you're a founder, you're doing, you need kinda see in a Pre series, a type investing.
You're gonna have a hard time, because you can't meet the investors, but the investors still wanted to play money. That's what they're getting paid to do. And so you need to figure out how to show them the results. Make them trust you.
Anyway, that is virtual and that you didn't have to do before that you relied more person to person meeting at some point and that's that's the different ball game that that you're in. Right? So so I wouldn't say that investors are deploying last.
Right because let me just give you almost statutorily. Right?
And that lets you regulated but but these venture capitalist, if they're a real venture capital fund, meaning the raised institutional money to deploy their job is to deploy capital. Right?
Deploy capital only in good times. Their job is to deploy capital.
Now, if you're talking to the individual investor, that is the angel investor.
Dumps fifty K twenty five K. a hundred K into a company that's different. They have their own personal things that they had to deal with. Right? Maybe they have to pay for more things at home.
Maybe, they're one of the family members got laid off and they got to help them. That's different.
They are not a professional investor that makes sense professional investors have funds that have and they have traditionally a ten year a lifetime,
meaning in good or bad over those ten years you need to want to put the capital and then you have to actively manage.
To make sure that they work out. So, by definition, any professional investor that has the fund early stage or not, they have to deploy capital.
So, if you're a founder and those are the investors going after, you just have to go and figure out how to make sure that you're telling your right story and a better way virtually. And you can't rely on the persons person meeting. And if you can do that, you can raise capital.
Right. That's actually great. And again positive. I'll look into the future. I think that's the episode.
Be honest, so, let's move on on these positive notes to the last question of today's episode, which is going to call to action. What's that? One thing that you would at least hard to do? As soon as the episode is over?
And so I'll say for the, for the founder, maybe because of this whole virtual situation, you may have to show more proof points. So I've always told any founder that I talked to in anyone.
Them or not the best type of fundraising is revenue.
Right revenue sell, sell your product service whatever you got if you know how to sell that product you will build a good business and investors will find you investors will figure out how to get to you.
Now, it doesn't mean, you want you don't want to run a professional fundraise process. You still want to do that right? And and yes, absolutely. You can't run. You can't burn a bunch of cash on your own
money. Right? Unless you personally wealthy.
So at some point, if you want that super high growth and and kind of cash burning process to to to super high growth yeah you're gonna have to raise the money from investors that are okay with with cash burn.
And so, at some point, you do, you know, if you wanna go that path, then it doesn't hurt to raise that that type of money. But the best metric is the fact that you can get your own revenue. And that's the most important.
So so that that should be, but by far the most important device that you take from anyone, because that's gonna lead to success.
Yeah, for for investors, listening.
Stick to your strategy, right? If if you, I believe that you're a good investor, your strategy should work thick and thin. It shouldn't work only in uptimes. It should working downtimes as well. Right? You're the way you analyze companies.
You should be doing the same thing. And you're, you're limited partners, whether today or later on, they're going to trust you because, you know how.
In up times and downtimes, so stay the course structure Saturday. Now, if your strategy isn't working in these downtimes, you know.
I had to change how we think about companies. Right? I need to change my analyze companies and that's a whole different ball game. So, let this crisis situation, be your guide and to pressure test your strategy.
And if your strategy needs to change, I'd rather you do it today, then, you know, once you build a firm, your ten years in and going up, right. Which happened to a lot of firms and two thousand, two thousand one right?
And we sort of had the kinda zombie vc's out there that happened because a lot of firms essentially, you know, follow the strategy.
You know, follow and buy up and then all of a sudden things blew up and your next fund wasn't that great right? That have.
Started I was hoping that we're going to end up on a positive note but, as I always say, you know, this process is just an emotional role.
Down just like, in a startup life so people get used to this and follow manuals advice. I think it was great. So we'll wrap it up.
By the way my personal call to action is go out, check the description of the episodes. I'll include few links that, and, you know, mentioned and a few resources that I would personal recommend you to use to find investors and validate them.
Point we'll wrap it up. Thanks a lot of manual for coming up and for sure is fields. It was great and then it was good as well. Even though it's got a big darker. So thank you for that. Alright well, we'll talk again soon.