Jesse Randall, Partner at Citrine Capital Partners explains who should take time to draw financial projections and at which stage one should do that. We also talk about what should go into those projections and how to get the first traction for those projections.
Sweater Ventures - become a venture capitalist: https://www.sweaterventures.com/
Acquired by Lyft in less than a year: https://www.fundraisingradio.com/Kenan-Saleh/
Video of our interview: https://youtu.be/GuP5IDF53-k
This is fun reason redo. And today's a guest speaker we have Jesse Randall partner at C, Trina Capital Partners and founder and CEO at Square. And this episode will mainly talk about how to get early traction.
And at which point sheet, a founder of a startup start fundraising. So, Jesse Lesley called by you giving us some background on yourself and on securing the capital. Absolutely. So, I've been in the start space for about twelve or thirteen years.
Now in the middle there. I got my MBA, the Thunderbird school, global management, and got a masters in environmental policy at Vermont law school and interesting.
We chose to switch from clean tech into tech tech and got into software and everything Internet related about eight or nine years ago work for a micro find out of Scottsdale, Arizona, and a accelerator program there.
So and then I've I've consulting work with companies a lot since that time. So I've worked with about two hundred software and technology companies with every business model. And, and just about every industry that you can imagine, I love working with companies.
It's my passion, the earliest stage going from zero to one is where I like to live, helping to build out a couple of companies right now.
So, between Capital Partners is a private equity group that deals in early stage liquidation transactions from a variety of different angles. We also have sort of like family office money that puts money to deals occasionally.
And we have one of those in the table that we're building.
We take a very hands on approach. Sweater is a fintech company that I'm also getting off the ground. Who's objective is to open up the venture capital asset class to everyday people. Today.
You pretty much have to be able to stroke a five hundred thousand dollar check in a minimum to get into a sizable fund. That's twenty five million or more. And that's out of reach for ninety nine point. Nine percent of people even most accredited investors.
If you were five million, you're not going to write ten percent of your net worth into a single fund objective is to create an intermediary fund that takes money from the public and happy to explain more about that. If anybody cares.
And then, as I fund structure, it makes us a qualified investor as fun, and we would turn around and make investments into a dozen venture capital funds and report on all of their investments back to our investors via mobile app kind of a Robin. That's really cool.
That's an awesome idea. And since Robin Hood took off, hopefully, Square will take off as well. First of all. I, I'm actually curious that was not in the plan of our today's in three, but it just popped into my head and the question is, why did you name that funds?
Whether I mean, swear, if you Google swear, it's gonna show you sweater, you know. Well, why would you name a company like that? I'm just curious. Well, I mean, exactly. For that reason, right? We wanted to pick something. That was an everyday common word.
That people used, because it becomes a trigger, you know, as we grow and have influence in the world every time someone used the word sweater, it becomes everywhere all around them. It's something that's recognizable. It's easy to pronounce and.
No, technology companies are anywhere close to it. When you Google sweaters, you find sweaters so the opportunity, and plus there's a ton of fun marketing stuff you can do with it.
There's sweaters for every occasion,
every time of year cultures around the world, you can do all kinds of stuff,
marketing campaigns where we put sweaters on statues and we have everyone in our videos and different sweater because there's so much fun creative stuff you can do with it suddenly there's a little bit of a,
a gentle jab at the,
the VC ecosystem,
because the standard outfit is a sweater vest or kind of a subtle thing there, but that's not what we're meeting with.
I thought the plan was there. Like, we're putting people together elsewhere when he needed to there. I thought there's a whole back story.
Yeah, I think we could play out that stuff, but it's more visibility really nice and whatever we want. I'm curious. I I don't want to go too much in depth to this topic, but naming of the companies is super, very important. In my opinion.
I mean, what's your advice to founders? Should they trying to make the company sound like the should explain what the company does? Or should they name companies like.
Eliminate you know, that does insurance, which has absolutely no relation whatsoever. So, what's what's your advice here? I think it is a reflects the priorities of the founder every founder feels very differently about how their brand reflects themselves.
Ultimately you just can't get away from it.
Ultimately, it is a, it is your doppelganger, it's, it's extension of who you are and so some people want that to be obvious, you know, like the founder that I work with institution capital, you know, it's it's definitely a reflection of who he is right?
And we want people to look at it and recognize it and have kind of a glimpse into what we do because of that and isn't necessarily that name. But the other company working on it's called guidebook. And when you understand what we're doing it makes sense.
You know, personally, I, I like the open ended the deal, the ability to make it into whatever you want and and have that open creative funnel. I like that side of things.
But, I mean, there's other elements you have to dive into, you know, I mean, the ability to get a URL and, you know, who you're competing against, and where your audience has found and all that kind of stuff, it could become a complicated decision. But at the end of the day, you just have to love it. Don't do it for purposes.
You don't do it simply because that's the only URL you can find, you know, there's lots of ways around it. Your, your, your brands and extension of you and you need right? That's that's deal. Number one.
I need to bring the founders of lemonade here to talk about that just just about that but for now, let's move on and talk about Supreme capital and the thing that you mentioned earlier,
that once sock a little bit more about is early stage liquidation transactions what is that?
generally when people talk about liquidation, they're talking about venture,
whatever funded companies are going through this process and liquidation is either an acquisition, or it's going through an Ikea.
Those are really the only options,
but when you look at the broader private market ecosystem,
venture capital is a very small sub segment of the entire private equity and venture capital world,
the vast majority of companies out there are not venture back and they go through liquidation processes all the time there's really big liquidation and acquisition processes.
You know, like when Google bot, Motorola anybody remember that, like, ten years ago, you know, everything that right? Or like, when Microsoft bought Nokia, you know, or whatever. Right? I mean, there's these huge transactions. That happened.
What about companies that are doing five or ten or fifty million in revenue? You know, investment bankers take care of a lot of that stuff, but there's a ton of nuance in between all those lines. There are, you know, a hundred ways to develop those transactions.
And to provide those original owners, or a founders, if you still want to call them that outside of VC world.
Those owners a chance at liquidity, and there's just a lot of ways that that can happen. You know, you get private equity partners are coming in by you out. You can great deals with private buyers. You can take some chips off the table, all the chips off the table. I mean, you can do all kinds of things right?
You can swap it around and have a consulting agreement with the company. You were just at even though you took all your chips off the table. I mean, there's just, there's so many ways that you can set those transactions.
And there are some very important elements of how you have to prepare your company to have those types of complex conversations with a buyer that is going to give you that liquidity.
And ultimately, that's what focuses on is helping those founders to prepare their companies that correct. Expectations going to that process, and sometimes we can bring on relationships into it that could actually make the transactions happen.
So, you know, in a nutshell, that's kinda nice. They explained to a guy now and let's go into a little bit of this, you know, preparation.
So you mentioned that you've advised multiple companies, like hundreds of companies,
and now we're preach recall,
you mentioned that you've done a lot of financial play and, you know,
drawing those financial projections what's your recommendation to early stage founders, who let's say,
ten small clients or fifteen,
should they even bother doing those financial projections?
Or is it just useless? If they never come true enough? Yeah. Well, never is relative. Right? You never hit. It never happens. Exactly the way you project it. That's true.
That's the only guarantee I ever give anyone when I built the financial your business will not look just like this. It will not happen. Just like this. What it does is it provides a roadmap.
So, a, I'm gonna give a little jab and aside to investors who discount financial models, because, in my opinion is because they don't understand how they work and how to build one in a way that actually gives you inside.
If you have a financial model. There's, there's two types. Well, let me say this first the reason you want to do this. I compare it to a visual of driving a car in the dark. If you don't have your headlights on and you're driving down the road, you're going to five miles an hour.
You're fine. You know, there's no street lamps. I assume you're on the country, you know, you're driving along and you're kind of fine if you're going slow, you see that white line on the side of the road. Right?
But the faster, you go the more nerve wracking that is and the more likely it is, that occur in the road is gonna throw you off. So, what a financial model does it's not turning on the sun. So, that you can see everywhere and three miles ahead of you.
But it's turning on your headlights. So you can see just far enough in ahead of you to know if there's a
turn coming or if something else like that has happened and that's ultimately the purpose of finance in any context is looking into the future.
So, the hard thing about finance in a startups context is, if you look at finance on Wall Street, they're taking all this past information and crunching it to try to predict the future in a startup. You don't have any past information.
So predict the future is hard to you're relying on tons of assumptions, but those assumptions can come from benchmarks. Other companies come from in depth reporting across the industry.
It can come from standard benchmarks, like, on Facebook how much it's gonna cost for a CPA and what click through funnels look like to get to a purchase and the category that you're in or you can find things that provide real guidance building.
A company isn't making it up as you go along ultimately,
building a financial model is taking everything and your go to market strategy that you're gonna do in the next twelve or thirty six months or sixty months and it's articulated into numbers and putting it against the timeline,
you're gonna go through this whole process anyway, and you're making all these decisions.
So, all you're doing is taking those decisions. You're making some assumptions now, how you believe in your best, you know, and your understanding how they're gonna play out and then you're laying all those complex elements over each other and it's important to do it.
Because I've still I've been doing, I probably built at least two hundred and fifty standalone financial models in depth, full on, you know, it takes me twenty five or thirty hours to build it.
I built, you know, so many of them, and I still can't sit down with the founder, have a conversation and say oh, yeah, I know how this is gonna play out. I, I can't do it yet and I've been building this stuff for ten years.
You know so, it's important that all that complexity gets layered on top of itself. All the all the different elements of how you build a company,
how you get leads how that turns into revenue that the payment cycles of revenue, the obligations of what it takes to actually close deals and support the company, you can't wear all that stuff in your head,
which is why you need to build a model, so that it spits out the complexity for you, and you can see how it all plays out.
So, that's why I, I believe it's so important to do that if anything it's gonna make you a way better founder, because you're gonna understand your business in a more in depth way, and you'll see things coming that she didn't see other worlds. Right right.
You had a nice explanation, love the, the card comparison, but I'm curious. So you said that you're staying as a professional for multiple of those you spend, like, twenty five to thirty hours on each
What's your expectation from a founder who has never done it? Before maybe is not a financial major. How launch should they spend on the on this billing financial model? Yeah, absolutely. So caveat on that.
Twenty five or thirty hours that's like a full blown model. That's a big model. You know, that's a company, you know, twelve months of operations under the belt, and, you know, is doing ten or twenty or thirty thousand a month recurring revenue.
You've really got a lot of, you know, substance there in terms of where you're at, that you need to understand moving forward. And the questions are much more Sirius when you're speaking to investors.
if you're like,
if you're just getting started,
and you're at the idea stage,
your product is just getting off the ground on gender,
you can create a much more streamlined model that you can build and say,
three to five hours or five to ten hours,
you can build a great model in that amount of time,
and not have to go over the top.
So to speak how to do it, that's a little different. If you don't have any financial background, I think that you can still get through the basics, you know, you learn the basics of Excel.
And effectively, what you're doing is, you're, you're creating a very basic assumptions, and very basic formulas that play themselves off and kind of a waterfall timeline perspective to get to your revenue.
And you're thinking about this stuff anyways when you acquire customers. I mean, just take Facebook, for instance, right? What's the process of getting someone off of Facebook to become a customer?
You know, you have a dollar amount, you're spending, you have an average cost per click say, if you want to focus on that average cost per click, that's gonna deplete that budget. And she's gonna produce a certain number of leads. Those leads when they hit their website.
There should be a pretty standard number. You can find for conversion rates on the website. If you've
done a good job with the website, and then from there, how are you gonna fill up their card? How many you're actually gonna make a purchase? What are you selling? What what are the ranges of what they can buy from you?
And then, at that point, how are they purchasing it from you? Is it a single purchase because your E, com company are they gonna be paying you, you know, a hundred dollars a month for the next eighteen months? Because SAS play, you know, do you have to keep track of churn?
How do you get customers coming back to you? What's the assumption? Like, how often they're gonna come back and make a purchase again if they are E commerce comes to customer how many? One time buyers? Right?
How many we're gonna buy your your top product if your SAS company, and spend five hundred dollars a month, where the most are gonna spend hundred dollars a month I mean, it's not rocket science you just gotta think through it. It makes some reasonable assumptions. How is this really gonna shake out?
And I would argue if you can't think through the basics of that stuff, then you don't understand your business and you either need to find someone that can help you understand it. Or you may wanna think twice about being an entrepreneur, because all the come and punch you in the face.
Yep. You can just make all the mistakes and then learn it or you can understand it in advance and know that. It's absolutely a recommendation in advance. Don't think that can be like, a smart person that who's gonna figure it out on the way.
So nice advice sounds pretty complicated, but it's doable. I know. It's doable. Just sounds really.
Terrifying and I'm pretty sure there are multiple guides on, you know, billing those financial models. So just Google, I'm not going to leave links in the description this time.
But Google, Google gives you answers to everything, but let's move on and talk about the major topic of today's episode, which is gained this early traction.
So, once you build out that first business model, first of all to build out that business model, this financial projection, you need to have some sort of, some sort of traction. Right? Generally.
And how do you get that early traction? So, basically, why are the first steps that you would recommend? Well, first totally depends on the type company you're building and where your customer is found.
I'm a big component that you to do things that don't scale necessarily out of the gates in order to prove that someone wants what you have to offer. I love this Apple story.
You know, he just had the most unique way of trying to figure out if people would buy shoes online. He put up a website, put up a bunch of shoes where people would buy shoes. You'd go down the street and purchasing from J.
C Penney come back and put them in a box and ship it to the person to see what they would do. Didn't make any money on it. But I figured out kind of some of his ratios for every, you know, ten set of shoes. I send out how many are aren't gonna, like, want to send it back.
You know, if I did by shoes wholesale, what are those prices really gonna be? Like how much money do I have to work with you? I have to charge for shipping. What? If I offered shipping for free? Does that change peoples behavior?
You know, and he played with all that stuff before he ever got deep into inventory. And before you ever started spending, you know, ten thousand dollars a month on ad campaigns, he's running a hundred
bucks a month or maybe whatever hundred bucks a day or whatever.
It is to run some experiments it's just to see what what happened and ultimately, you know, when you go down those routes and you experiment with this and this, and this, it becomes smart about where to place your money.
And how to how that takes you down a path to revenue so it's only depends on on the situation that your companies in the stage that your technology's out. If you have tag for your products. However, you define product is that and how you go about that?
My my biggest thing I would advocate though. Everything right? Do things that don't necessarily scale but do it sooner than you think if you aren't a little bit ashamed of your baby, when you put it out there, then you waited too long.
You need to start selling it sooner and, you know, in many cases, you can even provide a service first. That does what you say. It's, let's say software, you provide a service.
It solves the problem that your software is gonna solve, but you're doing a manual and you charge five thousand dollars a month to come into a company and solve that problem. So that you figure it out and, you know, it really well, and you're getting paid for it.
So, as you can create a product, that's five hundred dollars a month to automate it and do it for them right that's not an easy path to go down. But it's certainly a smart one, so there's a lot of ways to do it but, yeah, I mean, you just gotta get out the.
Right, right actually we have a fun story of my own. I was trying to build a company that was rhyme peoples.
You know, people would just put in their plain text, and it would turn the, the text into something rhymes and the first the first H one. We're just testing it out.
We just put out the super simple website, and when people submit their text, they were just told that our algorithms are working in reality. I was getting ten, twenty emails per day.
I was writing them and saying back to them that the company failed at that. But, you know, it was, it was fun. It was fun experience and with failed and few months we'll figure it out really fast. So nice, nice recommendation, you know, do it manually that.
If it works then technology. So, let's go and talk about fundraising now.
So, at which point do think is the founder can the founder say, you know, now I'm ready now I have the stuff that I need to have to fundraise. Should they have a? I know they have some traction. Should they have those financial projections?
Should they have a team? What's the top five things that you need to have to go? Fundraise safely?
Yeah, this is a load of topic for me, because I feel pretty passionately that founders should always jump in just because just to raise money. Right? That's not the only path to build a company.
There are all kinds of ways to do it. And I don't think that that's step one for mentality. Number one should be. I'm gonna go, raise money and build a billion dollar company.
I know that flies in the face of a lot of people, especially in the VC community. Because, you know, as the saying goes, if you're if you can't build the billion dollar company, out of it don't talk to me. Right? And that's fine. Right?
I mean, when you get to the point of raising money, you need to have the story that's gonna take you
there but you've got a lot of learning to do before you figure out whether or not your company can go down that path.
Because not every company is mentioned, and you can take it perfectly good idea and destroy it because you try to turn it into something that can become a billion dollar company. And I think that there's a ton of danger in that as founders.
I mean, and there's a ton of risk I mean, you go down that path and you try to more this idea into something that can fit that billion dollar idea categories so that you can get funding because that's the primary constraint we're trying to solve. Right?
So we can get funding, but by doing that your fundamentally changing the nature of of of how you're building the company itself, which increases your risk of complete loss, even if you do get funded.
And so from a, I'm very founder, I'm, I'm, I'm on the founder side.
I want founders to find success. I don't really care about the investors. They're gonna be fine. They build a portfolio of thirty companies. They know that twenty of them are gonna fill out. Right? And they're not gonna get a penny back. They know that.
But what about the, the life and the risks of every one of those thirty companies that founder just spent five or seven years of his life fail, you know, have a sixty chance of failure, you know, and that's fine.
That's the game, which is why, if you're gonna play the game, you need to have yourself set up to be on the winning twenty percent of that not in the bottom, sixty percent. And I think most of that comes in mentality and how you prepare yourself.
So, to get to your direct question, then if you're gonna get to if you want to raise money.
My advice is build a company without the mentality of wanting to raise money. Your first mentality should be solving a real problem. You figure out that problem is you articulated well, you become a world renowned expert in that problem.
The nuances of it who suffers from a why they suffer from it who all the stakeholders are surrounded, how you insert yourself so that you can solve it or, at least a portion of it and you build as much values. You can around that world.
And as you do that, you're gonna build something that's valuable. Unless you,
you don't have the capability to understand what the problem is, which many don't right or the ability to solve the problem,
which also many don't,
but if you can identify the problem articulated well,
become an expert on it and find a solution that's actually going to solve it,
and you figure out a way to do that,
and you figure out how to generate revenue out of it and you move yourself along.
You're gonna discover a couple of things first you're going to discover that you can actually make
money at it. You didn't have to raise money in order to make money at the problem that you're solving.
And secondarily, you were going to realize that that money is gonna take you way farther than you think it would have on its own. And by allowing you to cash yourself caught bootstrapping call, whatever you want.
But by going through that process and taking yourself as far down that path, as you can, you will realize real constraints in the operation of the business that necessitate that you raise money.
Instead of saying, hey, I want to be on the path I wanna get on that train and just jumping on just because everyone else is doing it. That's the wrong timing when you really want is when you have an opportunity that's unfolding so fast in front of you that you can't take it all in.
That's when you want to raise money. Now. Guess what? When you're in that position,
who's pounding down your door instead of the other way around every investor wants to be in an amazing deal and there's a reason the most investors pass on ninety eight percent of deals that come across their desk is because it's the other way around for most of the founders,
they're pounding on their door saying, you know,
you're kind of like a bigger hey,
give me money.
Here's my slick story. You know, Here's why I have all these checkboxes check from that. Y, Combinator checklist. They gave me, you know, and why, why can't I know and it's because you're missing the fundamental elements. Yes.
You have to check all those boxes, but there's a totally different fundamental foundation underneath it that you're missing if you don't do it. Right?
And I can tell you that, as a founder, you don't want to be on the banking side, because you're gonna spend a ton of time trying to convince and persuade or an investor to believe in.
And you mostly when really, if you spent all that time, just building a company, eventually you get to the other place where they're coming to you saying, hey, you built something pretty amazing here. I'd like to be a part of it.
And then deal terms are in your favor evaluation is gonna be higher. You're going to own more of your company, you're gonna have better control. You're gonna be growing faster and more controllable because you have a real opportunity that's actually unfolding instead of trying to create one.
And your probability success goes from twenty percent to, like, eighty percent and it's just a difference. It's the right way to play the game but that's not the narrative set. So I'm passionate about this. I can talk about it all day. Founders.
We're getting duped anyways. I want to help change in their. Yeah, right so they that's true. Live. Founders do have that weird attitude towards fundraising.
I personally love it, you know, because I'm a financial person and but you're you're absolutely right. And actually, I'm releasing soon. I'm releasing an episode called. Why not to raise so it's gonna be all about that one.
I mean, two last questions first is gonna be why companies so you mentioned why company? I'm personally not the biggest fan about why see but now, what's your advice to?
I've seen probably like, every single founder gain to, at least even starting to think about fundraising. First thing that they do frequently, is they start applying to why see, do you think that's a good approach or not? Not really.
What's your what's your thoughts on this?
Well, I, I have to give why company a lot of credit they've built an incredible brand and incredible track record. You get into Y, Combinator and you're not guaranteed success by any stretch of the imagination.
But it definitely takes you out of that category of, you know,
eighty percent failure probability,
and puts you into a much better,
the capital's nice,
right it gets you a good little jump start the ability to recruit a better team will come much easier the ability of partnerships and open doors,
you could have taken you years to open if that's all very real and extremely valuable.
If you can get into Y. Combinator. That's great. Should it be the first thing you do? I don't think so. Personally, I would go back to the same story.
I just told you go through that other process of getting to a place, or something's unfolding in front of you then apply to Y, Combinator. Guess what?
You actually have a shot of getting in,
instead of wasting six months of your life,
trying to craft the perfect story,
and build the perfect advisory board and,
get a couple of name play buddies of yours who work at Coke and wherever else to say that they'll buy something from you products.
I mean, you can go through all that BS and it's fine like, that can get you in. If you can persuade the Y Combinator team to say, hey, these guys really have something. And I've some really good friends of mine that went through Y Combinator and they, they were very young.
They had a very nice idea, but they are extraordinarily ambitious. And the idea was in, had a huge
And so, I commoner basically said, hey, we're gonna just put a huge bet on you because if it wins, it's gonna win enormous. And that's pretty much what we're looking at. And that was, that was what, how they were placed in there. But a lot of companies that go into, I see, you're much more prepared.
So, I don't know that it's the first step and, I mean, if you get away from Y, Combinator and maybe tech stars, when you look at all of the other accelerators out there, I mean, I ran an accelerate three years. You know, I put for cohorts through that accelerated program.
This is back in the twenty twelve to twenty fourteen timeframe and I, I don't see the value. It's a ton of time you use an enormous amount of energy going through the program and focusing on the things.
They want you to go through so that I love all my friends out there that run accelerators to make a positive impact. By the end of the day. They've got to justify their existence too.
So, there's pressure on them to get you to do exactly what they need you to do so that they can comply with all their backers and what they want you to do, isn't necessarily what you should be doing. There's value to be had.
Especially if this is your first time treading water in the entrepreneurial world, you can learn a lot would be careful. I wouldn't give up ten percent of my company to anybody with Y Combinator and I think they only want six, right? Yeah, yeah, they do have to just that's just.
I think, yeah, definitely if you're a first time, Bernard accelerator is great. They might do some weird stuff, but it's definitely gonna help you.
And Y, see, I think just doing this application, they asked tons of questions that make you think like, way. Am I even good? You know, and then you actually see the problems that you have with your company.
So maybe the application itself is even worth doing that. There was gonna require tons of time. But here, we're moving onto last question of today's up as a, which is a call to action.
So, Jessie, what would you like policemen to do as soon as the episode is over caught off guard on that I know. You asked me that question. I mean, honestly, that just, you know, there's something that's going to benefit me, I'll give you to two calls to action.
I give you one of the benefits me one that's gonna benefit. Alright, if you wanna go check out sweater, go find a skit on a waiting list.
I'd love to have you watch what we're doing where we're trying to change the way the adventure works and accessibility to the private markets I think it's awesome. I'm very passionate about it.
Our vision goes well, beyond just getting individual people into VC funds. We really want to change the nature of how companies are built and scale. And so that's a ton of passion for me. I'd love for you to go check it out.
I think for you, not you, but our audience, those are listening I was gonna tell you to go do one thing right now I'd say, well, I guess depends on what position you're it, but I would examine.
What it takes to go make some money right now I can guarantee you, there's people that are listening to this who are building a company.
We've not even thought about generating revenue because they're so focused on building a product or applying for funding.
Regardless of where you're at stop what you're doing and say, how can I go make money right now it's relevant to your business. I mean, you go driving over whatever right? Relevant to your business.
How can you go make some money because by asking yourself that question, and forcing you to go and talk to your customers, you're gonna learn more about your products and do more good for your company and increase your likelihood of success than any other area of focus.
So, I would give you each of you is listening that challenge. And if you are making revenue, go in focus on how else can we make revenue? Is this the best way that we're making revenue? Is there another revenue stream? We can tackle.
It's not gonna be a total distraction and go. Get some revenue is survival is the number one. Skillset of any entrepreneur. You got a fricking survive. If you run out of individual resources, you're dead. Everything's gonna take longer than you. Expect.
So figure out how to make some money so we can keep yourself alive. So you can actually build a perfect that's wonderful advice. And, you know, it's fair that you did one for yourself. One for listeners. I think software is really cool one.
So, maybe the listener is gonna be going to benefit from that as well. And a couple percent of my listeners are investors. Indeed. So, maybe that's the call to action for them. But Michael, to actually go to the description of this episode.
It's our third time that we're doing audio and video so if you have still not seen our. Video, you should definitely go out and check out the description of that. So I'll.
Try to include the link there. I'm not sure if I remember that, but I'll do my best. So, do that just check the description.